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Engine Knocking! :( Big End Bearing!

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Trd Shane
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Re: Engine Knocking/Rattle! :(

Postby Trd Shane » Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:29 pm

Like at first the intake cam was stiff as hell then all of a sudden with constant pressure on the spanner she moved and now is free as a bird in both directions ... So maybe something broken inside the sprocket and now I will have the same problem as you when I go to start it hahaha .. But didn't seem like anything broke fingers crossed ... If I get it back together and it rattles then I will let you know ..
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RS Tom-Hundred
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Re: Engine Knocking/Rattle! :(

Postby RS Tom-Hundred » Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:04 am

Hmmm, not sure. I wouldnt say that it took Dad that much to turn the spanner first time and the resistance was probably just the springs maybe or bit like when you turn the crank over you get a bit more resistance in the position when compression is different etc. presume that your timing belt / marks didnt move though? When I turn the camshaft nothing else turns on mine (belt, sprockets/camgear, pumps and crank etc are all still and just the camshaft has the "float", presumably because it is moving insode the VVTi workings separate to the actual gear/sprocket. Is that the same with yours or does the camshaft rotation turn the belt??

Trd Shane
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Re: Engine Knocking/Rattle! :(

Postby Trd Shane » Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:50 am

RS Tom-Hundred wrote:Hmmm, not sure. I wouldnt say that it took Dad that much to turn the spanner first time and the resistance was probably just the springs maybe or bit like when you turn the crank over you get a bit more resistance in the position when compression is different etc. presume that your timing belt / marks didnt move though? When I turn the camshaft nothing else turns on mine (belt, sprockets/camgear, pumps and crank etc are all still and just the camshaft has the "float", presumably because it is moving insode the VVTi workings separate to the actual gear/sprocket. Is that the same with yours or does the camshaft rotation turn the belt??

No nothing else moves only the cam itself
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Gojira san
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Re: Engine Knocking/Rattle! :(

Postby Gojira san » Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:06 pm

You guys both having the same problem makes me want to scrap the vvt-i entirely. @trdshane how many kilometers has your engine done?? hope to find out what you guys come up with. :?:

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RS Tom-Hundred
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Re: Engine Knocking/Rattle! :(

Postby RS Tom-Hundred » Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:43 pm

I dont think Shane has a problem as such mate :) And I'm now presuming (because mine has the same camshaft movement as his) that this is probably not the fault causing the knocking noise on mine tbh! ;)

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Tosh21
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Re: Engine Knocking/Rattle! :(

Postby Tosh21 » Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:58 pm

I THINK the spring is meant to re position it after its moved. Or like you said the oil repositions it. It takes quite a few cranks to build oil pressure so make sure before you do to turn the whole engine by hand with a spanner on the bottom pulley bolt. do it atleast twice so you do a full rotation of the cams. I'd go 4 maybe even 6 and just keep checking your timing still lines up, just good practice really. The oil pressure gauge will not move on crank either it needs to fire before it reads anything and there is no low oil pressure warning light. I pulled my filter off and cranked it until oil came out just to be absolutely sure there is oil going through the system and I haven't done something wrong as it takes seconds of no oil to destroy bearings.

A few people do get rid of the vvti when they turbo this car. The vvti is so dam complicated and expensive it kinda makes sense to dump it for a solid adjustable pulley, TODA make a set but I think they are fairly expensive. VVTI does (apparently) help with turbo spool and if tuned properly can reduce the lag plus you can play with valve overlap at a variety of rev ranges so it can make more power with a steadier curve. I was going to bin mine when I had all the stress of the pulley, they are an absolute nightmare and really make you panic when something goes wrong!

Also, Shanne. You said the pulley eventually gave way and was stiff at first? Did you try just as hard on the exhaust pulley?

The only reason I can think of for the inlet moving is that the inlet timing does change on cranking to help it fire so it might just be not as stiff as the exhaust so that the low crank oil pressure is enough to move it maybe?

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RS Tom-Hundred
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Re: Engine Knocking/Rattle! :(

Postby RS Tom-Hundred » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:15 am

I tried my camshafts again and deffo got movement on the intake camshaft and nothing on the exhaust. Only time I got the exhaust camshaft to move was when I turned the crank so it was just after TDC and then it would but it moved the whole camshaft and sprocket and belt etc as well so wasnt "freeplay" in the camshaft like the intake side. I checked it again and did this video to try to show the movement but its not great cos I'm holding my phone in one hand while I try to work the spanner with the other and it jolts around! LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RmvZYWTkGY

I then turned the engine over a few times on the crank, first with the camshaft in the "anticlockwise most" position and then with it in the "clockwise most" position and I noticed that it would just take up the freeplay automatically and always end up with the same position after one rotation (two rotations at the crank) with the intake camshaft "nobble" facing upwards. I also noted that when the camshaft "nobble" was upwards on the intake side it was straight down on the exhaust side. Makes sense that they would be 180° opposite. I also ran the engine briefly after all this and no issues with contact (just the god awful knocking noise still of course! LOL)

Think I will do a compression test next.
Then maybe remove the timing belt and double check things there
Then drop the oil and sump and see if I can see anything
Then I'm heading towards taking the head off and having a look in there before having the engine out to investigate further I think!!
How easy is it to take the head off in situ? Are all the bolts easy to get at?

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Tosh21
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Re: Engine Knocking/Rattle! :(

Postby Tosh21 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:02 pm

Yea it's not too bad to do in situ. The only kinda difficult part was the water hoses on the back of the head, bit tricky to get to and taking the head off itself, it's pretty heavy and best with 2 people, same for going back on. Cleaning the head and block fire face was a bit of a hassle cos the gasket left loads of crap on it, ended up getting mine cleaned on a mill

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Re: Engine Knocking/Rattle! :(

Postby Trd Shane » Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:06 pm

Head is easy to get off just pain staking there is a lot if striping to be done but it's no real issue ... Just time consuming .. Only problem I had was the crank pulley but after taking the rad out to give me more room to fit a larger impact gun in it was simple after that again just pain in the ass and takes a while to do ... If I where you I'd take bottom end off first before I go disturbing head .. A compression test should indicate if there's any issue in the head ... But the cheaper and less time consuming way is to go from sump and have a look at bottom end .... If I was doing the head again I'd take the engine out as you would have a lot more room to work and be easier in the end
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Re: Engine Knocking/Rattle! :(

Postby Trd Shane » Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:09 pm

Tosh21 wrote:I THINK the spring is meant to re position it after its moved. Or like you said the oil repositions it. It takes quite a few cranks to build oil pressure so make sure before you do to turn the whole engine by hand with a spanner on the bottom pulley bolt. do it atleast twice so you do a full rotation of the cams. I'd go 4 maybe even 6 and just keep checking your timing still lines up, just good practice really. The oil pressure gauge will not move on crank either it needs to fire before it reads anything and there is no low oil pressure warning light. I pulled my filter off and cranked it until oil came out just to be absolutely sure there is oil going through the system and I haven't done something wrong as it takes seconds of no oil to destroy bearings.

A few people do get rid of the vvti when they turbo this car. The vvti is so dam complicated and expensive it kinda makes sense to dump it for a solid adjustable pulley, TODA make a set but I think they are fairly expensive. VVTI does (apparently) help with turbo spool and if tuned properly can reduce the lag plus you can play with valve overlap at a variety of rev ranges so it can make more power with a steadier curve. I was going to bin mine when I had all the stress of the pulley, they are an absolute nightmare and really make you panic when something goes wrong!

Also, Shanne. You said the pulley eventually gave way and was stiff at first? Did you try just as hard on the exhaust pulley?

The only reason I can think of for the inlet moving is that the inlet timing does change on cranking to help it fire so it might just be not as stiff as the exhaust so that the low crank oil pressure is enough to move it maybe?


I tried just as hard on exhaust pulley and nothing as Tom said I went that hard it started to turn the engine over so I dunno just hope it works when it's all back together at this rate of bad luck it will never be back together ... Just considering putting the 2jz I have into it and be done with it hahaha
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RS Tom-Hundred
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Re: Engine Knocking/Rattle! :(

Postby RS Tom-Hundred » Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:55 pm

Thanks for the input guys :)

Cool, seems a way to go :) Hopefully can get my mate over in morning to do the compression test with me. Did you do a leak down test on yours to tell the valves were leaking I presume?

I havent got an issue with the pulley as I've already had that off (puut a bar on it onto a block of wood and snapped on the starter to turn engine (not start it) to undo it :)

Haha! Sure it will be fine mate. Hope the head is ok. but if you do put the other engine in, then let me have first dibs on bits from your 3SGE please! :P LOL

Trd Shane
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Re: Engine Knocking/Rattle! :(

Postby Trd Shane » Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:22 pm

Yeah a leak down test is the way to do it while engine is intact .. But if you have the head off fill the with petrol until you cover the valve faces then with a air line blow threw the inlet side and exhaust side doing you best to cover up the side your doing with a rag so you get most of the pressure going on te under side of the valves you don't need a lot of pressure just a steady blow ... If you valves are leaking you will see it bubbleing... I did them all cause I wasn only doing three ... Pretty glad I did aswel although the other valves where seating they where pretty bad and probably not long before they blew .. Yeah I hope the head is ok too ... If your feuding them in only use a very fine grinding paste to clean them up .. Otherwise you will have to re shim the valves and that looks like a pain in the ass cause of the cups and shim type are hard to do so I've been told
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Tosh21
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Re: Engine Knocking/Rattle! :(

Postby Tosh21 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:25 pm

leak down test wont make tell you where it's leaking from. it will just tell you there is a leak and you can only tell where it is from by listening for it.

You will need to take the head off to do a valve leak test. Best way is to go to an engine shop and ask them if they can test it as they will have a vac machine which you put on the ports. There are other ways, youtube will have some ghetto methods. If you have the head off you may aswel lap the valves in. Use valve lapping paste!! Start with coarse and then finish with fine, use a proper valve lapping stick too, the whole grabbing it in a drill chuck and spinning it is a bit too ghetto. It should leave a nice clean almost shiny valve seat which is a good way to tell it's sealing too. If the seats are too worn for a lapping they need a regrind which is insanely expensive.

Shimming the valves is easy, just time consuming. Need to check each valve clearance with a feeler gauge, measure the shim and get one thicker or thinner to compensate for however much it is out of tolerance.

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RS Tom-Hundred
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Re: Engine Knocking/Rattle! :(

Postby RS Tom-Hundred » Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:01 am

Cheers Tosh. Leak down wass just an extra check if I had time before head off but probably wont bother as it ran/it runs so well apart from the noise tbh.

My valve clearances were all good too when I checked them so dont anticipate any issues there anyway, I thinkm its further down . . .

Doing a compression test tonight anyway to see if there is a discrepancy anywhere. Also a good overall health check in case it helps my decision to persevere with this engine or get a replacement etc.

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Re: Engine Knocking/Rattle! :(

Postby mikeb » Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:02 pm

Have you had the engine oil analysed yet? Do that first, certainly before you take off the head, and probably the sump as well. If it isn't the VVTI (and it seems not, from what you've deduced so far), then bottom end bearing is most likely. I certainly wouldn't pull the head off until you've eliminated the bottom end. It's a right load of work, risk for things to go wrong just for a speculative look is substantial (snapped studs, getting the faces clean enough to seal with a new gasket - metal gaskets like freshly machined/very clean, flat surfaces).


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