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Figs Engineering: Supra Disc Upgrade

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sprinter2012
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Figs Engineering: Supra Disc Upgrade

Postby sprinter2012 » Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:50 am

Right guys, time for my next upgrade/mod!

I am in the process of ordering, after having a chat with Mike from FIGS, a set of caliper brackets that will allow me to mount my stock calipers further out, enabling me to run 323mm UK Spec Supra discs instead of the 296mm stock ones.

It really is a no brainer if you're thinking about a brake upgrade for an IS200/IS300/Altezza.

My reasons for going for this upgrade over doing the whole Supra caliper upgrade are as follows.

  • No chopping bits off or removing the dust guard
  • You don't have to remove or bleed the brake lines
  • Useable stopping power is virtually identical to the Supra TT calipers, as the tyres become a limiting factor if you go any higher
  • WAY cheaper to buy and maintain
  • Better modulation/pedal feel while braking

Installation

Intallation is simple on these. It's only two steps more than changing your brake rotors during a normal brake job. (Three if you're adding SS lines when you do it.)

-Once your car is lifted securely with the wheels removed you will unbolt & remove the caliper just like when you're changing pads. *If you're doing brake lines now is the time to do it. *

-Remove pads & pad clips from the caliper bracket. You'll need the pad clips for the new bracket.

-Remove the 2-17mm bolts that hold the bracket & remove bracket.

-Remove stock rotor from hub

-Bend back top & bottom of dust sheild approx. 1/4 inch to clear TT rotor (I left these on as they aid in cooling)

-place Supra rotor on hub & check dust sheild clearance. Once ok procede.

-either remove slide pins from stock caliper bracket & press into new caliper bracket **or** press new slide pins into new caliper bracket (pay attention top & bottom are different)

-install new caliper bracket (pay attention to right & left sides)

-install pad clips & pads

-replace caliper & bleed brakes

-bed pads & enjoy.


And a small quote from a guy who has done his maths...

The force (torque) is directly proportional to the increase in size (radius.) t = F x R

So since the force is equal (same caliper, same piston cross section) the increase in torque is directly the increase in radius.

So 1" on top of 11.7" is an 8% increase in potential braking force. Add in the metalurgical differences of the alloyed rotors and the improved thermal charateristics and I would throw another 5-10% given my experience with the two peice rotors I am running.


I've already ordered the Supra discs and new front pads, and I've also decided to fit new rubber boots and slide pins while I'm at it.

Also just to note, Mike has done me a good deal on this set, as my intention is that once you guys see what a great upgrade this is, we can then organise a group buy with FIGS.

So just to summarise: Stock IS200 Calipers, Stock IS200 Pads, UK Supra Discs

These are not my pictures, but here are a few I found on an american forum to show the brackets, and how the Supra discs look with OEM 17" wheels fitted...

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Last edited by sprinter2012 on Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:34 pm, edited 4 times in total.
IS200 Sport : F & R Tints : 6000K HIDs All Round : LED Side & Reverse : SMD Dash

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: Smoked indicators : Cusco Strut Brace : Bonnet Lifters : Legana Bumper : TRD Skirts

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Re: Figs Engineering: Supra Disc Upgrade

Postby mike_01 » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:20 am

Hi, silly question but wouldn't getting performance brake disc's and pads do a better job, you'r not running bigger calipers or brake pad's so the contact area will still be the same as the is200 disc to the supra disc, unless you run bigger pad's there wouldn't be any difference or any point running bigger disc's only for look but wouldn't think you'd notice 27mm :lol:
I could understand running a caliper with more pot's or even a bigger brake master cylinder, or bigger pad's on standard disc's and caliper as there would be more contact area

Sorry but to me seem's a bit of a waste of £350 when you could get a good set front and rear performance drilled and or grooved disc depending on choice and good set of pad's for less than that price and still will provide more stopping power, looks and heat dissipation plus the added de glaziing of the pads than just increasing the size of the front disc, only real difference would be heat dissipation due to having more surface area, but bear in mind contact are is not affected so no point

Don't forget by painting the caliper's help's to dissipate heat better and increases brake efficiency :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Figs Engineering: Supra Disc Upgrade

Postby ESXTEZZ » Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:12 pm

For the money its a good upgrade but only if you don't intend on going much above standard power and your not a hardcore track driver. I found the standard size pads too small for even the 296 disks and even with ebc and black diamond track pads they still over heated. Moving the caliper further out will increase the initial clamping force but they won't stop the pads cooking as quick.

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Re: Figs Engineering: Supra Disc Upgrade

Postby sprinter2012 » Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:13 pm

mike_01 wrote:Hi, silly question but wouldn't getting performance brake disc's and pads do a better job, you'r not running bigger calipers or brake pad's so the contact area will still be the same as the is200 disc to the supra disc, unless you run bigger pad's there wouldn't be any difference or any point running bigger disc's only for look but wouldn't think you'd notice 27mm :lol:
I could understand running a caliper with more pot's or even a bigger brake master cylinder, or bigger pad's on standard disc's and caliper as there would be more contact area

Sorry but to me seem's a bit of a waste of £350 when you could get a good set front and rear performance drilled and or grooved disc depending on choice and good set of pad's for less than that price and still will provide more stopping power, looks and heat dissipation plus the added de glaziing of the pads than just increasing the size of the front disc, only real difference would be heat dissipation due to having more surface area, but bear in mind contact are is not affected so no point

Don't forget by painting the caliper's help's to dissipate heat better and increases brake efficiency :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:



This is why I'm doing the thread, because most people are under the common misconception that you have to increase breaking pressure or pad area to get more braking force.

The diameter of the rotor has a direct impact on the braking force that can be achieved. Think about leverage, if you try to undo a wheel nut with a spanner which is only 3 inches long, you won't be able to. But if you use a spanner which is longer, you apply the same effort to the spanner, but get much more force on it.

The guys who designed this kit have done the math, and worked out that you will get around 10-15% increased braking performance. Much more than you'd get from putting on drilled or grooved rotors (which actually reduce the contact area with the pad)

EDIT: And if you get decent dimpled/grooves discs, you are looking at around £150. Plus some green stuff pads, thats another £80. So it's only about £100 cheaper than this upgrade for no improvement in braking whatsoever.
Last edited by sprinter2012 on Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
IS200 Sport : F & R Tints : 6000K HIDs All Round : LED Side & Reverse : SMD Dash

18" Aero Wheels : TTE Rear Lip : Black Calipers w/White Decals

: Smoked indicators : Cusco Strut Brace : Bonnet Lifters : Legana Bumper : TRD Skirts

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Re: Figs Engineering: Supra Disc Upgrade

Postby sprinter2012 » Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:17 pm

ESXTEZZ wrote:For the money its a good upgrade but only if you don't intend on going much above standard power and your not a hardcore track driver. I found the standard size pads too small for even the 296 disks and even with ebc and black diamond track pads they still over heated. Moving the caliper further out will increase the initial clamping force but they won't stop the pads cooking as quick.


Even if you don't go above standard power it's a good upgrade, as it means that even when driving normally you require less pad force on the rotor to achieve the same braking performance, which means cooler discs and pads and longer service intervals.

The Supra discs also have sided (left and right) directional cooling channels to help with cooling, a lot of guys in the states are choosing this upgrade over the full Supra caliper upgrade just because it is so much cheaper and easier. And gives the same performance as Supra calipers.
IS200 Sport : F & R Tints : 6000K HIDs All Round : LED Side & Reverse : SMD Dash

18" Aero Wheels : TTE Rear Lip : Black Calipers w/White Decals

: Smoked indicators : Cusco Strut Brace : Bonnet Lifters : Legana Bumper : TRD Skirts

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Re: Figs Engineering: Supra Disc Upgrade

Postby mike_01 » Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:10 pm

Heared this all before on the celica forum, people putting on scooby disc's on the celica's same as what your doing (bigger disc on scooby) and everyone who did it felt no difference at all, one of the guy's was racing so he would know, although was alot cheaper due to only needing a 5mm spacer behind the disc and a couple of spacer's aswell which think was about £40 in total so would be cheap enough to due especially if you need new disc's, you're not adding any leverage unless the caliper is put on the very end of the disc so would be 1mm off the edge so the inner part of the disc isn't used, bit of waste and unsightly when starts to rust, so the theory there would be the disc would travel slower due to the extra 27mm diameter which may I add is half that which the pad would actually contact, see the picture you provided has grooved disc's, that's where the extra performance is.
Also do you realise that increasing the size and weight of the disc your adding huge amounts of unsprung wheel weight which is the worst weight you can add, difference between light weight alloys and standard, good example of this was topgear when they did the renault megane up :roll:
I know what you mean by less friction area with the groove's but if they de-glaze the pads then that would keep the brakes working like new with each press of the pedal so there would be no or reduced fade so then would be more reliable and consistant braking. Have you ever had drilled and grooved front and rear and felt the difference, I have and only upgrade from them is bigger brakes/calipers
£100 cheaper that's quite a bit
If it was cheap then fair enough but cost and performance pound for pound that's why no one does it, don't rant and rave till it's on and done, think you would be disappointed
Not everything people do/sell does what they say it does

sorry to put a downer on it, I know you much be exited about them, but just stating fact

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Re: Figs Engineering: Supra Disc Upgrade

Postby mike_01 » Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:13 pm

Definatly can't see it gives the same performance as Supra setup just changing the disc's, as the supra calipers are 4 pot :lol: :lol:

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Re: Figs Engineering: Supra Disc Upgrade

Postby sprinter2012 » Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:26 pm

As you said, no leverage would be gained unless I mounted the calipers further away from the hub. Which is the whole point of the brackets I'm getting from FIGS, as they move the caliper out to take into account for the bigger discs. And I've used slotted discs too, and they hardly make any difference at all, they reduce brake fade a bit, but don't increase stopping power at all.

When I say 'performance' I don't mean all out stopping power. Sure the Supra 4-pot calipers can exert much more force on the disc than OEM can, but all that means is that you can lock up your wheels easier. It's not clamping force that imporoves braking, because even the stock calipers on stock discs can lock the wheels up. What improves performance is reducing brake fade, increasing cooling, and increasing modulation. Which this upgrade can do pretty much just as well as Supra calipers.

But don't take my word for it...

The feel during normal driving is nearly identical to stock.

When you really start to lay onto the brakes it is much more consistant. The heating process comes on much later & stays much cooler than the stocks.

I did several high speed stops that would normally have a very noticable hot metal smell, yet I barely noticed that familiar scent. That tells me these are much cooler.


If you are planning for boost down the road this is a great kit. Not mearly as expensive as a traditional BBK and you can easily install the base version now and upgrade the lines and fluid when you get your boost project going. Since it uses factory pads, the maintenance expense is the same as what it would be for OEM, but you will enjoy the benefits of better daily braking (depending on your tires) and still keep it from getting too expensive. I cannot think of a situation where increased braking is a negative, only the cost of maintenance over the span of use.


3 Month Update

So far everything is great.

I've done several drift events, a couple road trips (LA & back), twisty fun (Red Rock Loop) & a bit of high speed driving.

The pedal feel is still strong & consistant even under repeated braking. That equates to a high level of confidence. I can now say the tires are my limiting factor on braking once again.

Personaly, I don't think you'll be able to come close to this performance without spending 2-3x's the money.


Really enjoying these.

Handling the heat well. Just went to some really sticky street tires (Toyo R1Rs). Still work great.

I'm getting too spoiled. Gonna have to take it easy when winter comes back.


I thought the stock brakes were real good....these are on a whole nother level and I love them. The pedal is consistent during hard braking and I haven't had them fade at all. Definitely a worthwhile pickup since they are around 1/3 the price of a BBK for the front from some companies. I think its the best bang for the buck.


straight forward install with a simple bleed of the lines. performance wise....wow... stock was pretty good, but these are amazing...i have more confidence in my braking...less fade, more consistent braking. i love this package


Just installed the OEM BBK. All I have to say is: damn, this thing works great! you really feel a big difference when piling on the brakes at high speeds, halls the car down excellent.
IS200 Sport : F & R Tints : 6000K HIDs All Round : LED Side & Reverse : SMD Dash

18" Aero Wheels : TTE Rear Lip : Black Calipers w/White Decals

: Smoked indicators : Cusco Strut Brace : Bonnet Lifters : Legana Bumper : TRD Skirts

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Re: Figs Engineering: Supra Disc Upgrade

Postby mike_01 » Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:05 pm

Can't see anyone there talking about only changing disc's to supra one's, more like they changed the calipers aswell, or got aftermarket supra disc with grooves like picture you showed then would make a difference or better pad's, new pad's and new disc's will work better than old disc's and pad's don't forget

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Re: Figs Engineering: Supra Disc Upgrade

Postby sprinter2012 » Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:43 pm

mike_01 wrote:Can't see anyone there talking about only changing disc's to supra one's, more like they changed the calipers aswell, or got aftermarket supra disc with grooves like picture you showed then would make a difference or better pad's, new pad's and new disc's will work better than old disc's and pad's don't forget


Every single quote I posted there was from the thread for people to leave their feedback on the upgrade I'm doing, all of whom just used Supra discs on stock calipers.
IS200 Sport : F & R Tints : 6000K HIDs All Round : LED Side & Reverse : SMD Dash

18" Aero Wheels : TTE Rear Lip : Black Calipers w/White Decals

: Smoked indicators : Cusco Strut Brace : Bonnet Lifters : Legana Bumper : TRD Skirts

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Re: Figs Engineering: Supra Disc Upgrade

Postby ESXTEZZ » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:49 pm

sprinter2012 wrote:
ESXTEZZ wrote:For the money its a good upgrade but only if you don't intend on going much above standard power and your not a hardcore track driver. I found the standard size pads too small for even the 296 disks and even with ebc and black diamond track pads they still over heated. Moving the caliper further out will increase the initial clamping force but they won't stop the pads cooking as quick.


Even if you don't go above standard power it's a good upgrade, as it means that even when driving normally you require less pad force on the rotor to achieve the same braking performance, which means cooler discs and pads and longer service intervals.

The Supra discs also have sided (left and right) directional cooling channels to help with cooling, a lot of guys in the states are choosing this upgrade over the full Supra caliper upgrade just because it is so much cheaper and easier. And gives the same performance as Supra calipers.


This kit doesn't give the same performance as supra calipers.
The clamping force of the altezza twin calipers is nowhere near that created by the supra 4 pots or the ls400 4 pots, the altezza also has a smaller pad to disk surface area and its also a smaller pad.

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Re: Figs Engineering: Supra Disc Upgrade

Postby sprinter2012 » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:52 pm

ESXTEZZ wrote:This kit doesn't give the same performance as supra calipers.
The clamping force of the altezza twin calipers is nowhere near that created by the supra 4 pots or the ls400 4 pots, the altezza also has a smaller pad to disk surface area and its also a smaller pad.


I guess none of you are actually reading what I'm saying or just refuse to believe mathematical facts...if you put the same force on a larger diameter you WILL get higher braking force. It's basic physics, you can't talk your way around it.
IS200 Sport : F & R Tints : 6000K HIDs All Round : LED Side & Reverse : SMD Dash

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Re: Figs Engineering: Supra Disc Upgrade

Postby Soiled » Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:23 am

The only difference you will get is the heat dissipation. It doesn't change the area you are putting pressure on so no difference in braking power. I have supra 4 pots and slotted discs and even under hard road driving you can barely notice the difference, on the track I get less brake fade is about it. The factory brakes with good brake fluid (new and correct grade) and a good set of pads are actually awesome.

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Re: Figs Engineering: Supra Disc Upgrade

Postby sprinter2012 » Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:32 am

Soiled wrote:The only difference you will get is the heat dissipation. It doesn't change the area you are putting pressure on so no difference in braking power. I have supra 4 pots and slotted discs and even under hard road driving you can barely notice the difference, on the track I get less brake fade is about it. The factory brakes with good brake fluid (new and correct grade) and a good set of pads are actually awesome.


As I already quoted in the first post...

The force (torque) is directly proportional to the increase in size (radius.) t = F x R

So since the force is equal (same caliper, same piston cross section) the increase in torque is directly the increase in radius.

So 1" on top of 11.7" is an 8% increase in potential braking force.


And the reason your Supra calipers probably don't make much difference is because you put huge calipers on and didn't bother to upgrade the brake master cylinder so your brake system can't put enough fluid into them. Another reason why my method is better.
IS200 Sport : F & R Tints : 6000K HIDs All Round : LED Side & Reverse : SMD Dash

18" Aero Wheels : TTE Rear Lip : Black Calipers w/White Decals

: Smoked indicators : Cusco Strut Brace : Bonnet Lifters : Legana Bumper : TRD Skirts

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Re: Figs Engineering: Supra Disc Upgrade

Postby Soiled » Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:49 pm

Well... I did. Sooo.... The reason there isnt much difference on the road is that you barely use your brakes on the road anyway. So factory brakes are still perfectly fine to get you from the speed limit to stopped no matter your horsepower.


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